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Post by Grainbelt on Aug 17, 2011 15:50:47 GMT -5
How in the hell can you add 10% ethanol that contains 33% less energy content than gasoline to gasoline and get a 11 increase in energy? That violates the law of thermodynamics. You don't increase the energy content but you increase the combustion efficiency of unleaded gasoline by adding ethanol. It is not uncommon for vehicles to have increased mpg's with 5-12% ethanol and little to no decrease in mpg's up into the E15 to E20 range. It varies by injection system, timing, and compression ratio but it isn't a surprise that this happens. High performance engines have been running NOS system for decades for the horsepower enhancement and Nitrous Oxide has 0 combustible btu's.
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Post by Grainbelt on Aug 17, 2011 16:29:27 GMT -5
, we could be energy independent overnight. Restoring US energy independence is critical if we are not going to spiral down to turd world status. 48, If the US is ever energy independent, it won't be a country you or I will care to live in. Being dependent on imported energy is no big deal as long as you are able to add value to the energy that is consumed. As OBG pointed out, Singapore, Japan, and the US are huge energy importers and have some of the highest living standards on the planet. We don't need to worry about which lines on a map the btu's are produced just that it is used in an efficient, high value added way.
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Post by thirsty on Aug 17, 2011 18:52:00 GMT -5
There's three obvious powerblocks in America, each forming three big tribes. One is the irrepressible taco in the sw, the other is the soul brothers in the se, and the crazy honky brigade in the midwest up into the north. Gonna be an interesting century.
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Post by looter on Aug 17, 2011 18:59:19 GMT -5
I think GP needs a little back up against the ethanol bashers. lol. Grainbelt is pro or at least not anti-ethanol. jabber is pro ethanol. This ought to even it up a little. The law clearly says that in time of a short corn crop, that the mandate can be waived. BTW, diesel has more energy than gasoline but not 30% more. That's an error I posted a long time ago. Sorry. The EROEI of ethanol is better than gasoline. The following Energy Contents are from the back of a little book from my commodity broker. If you want it more detailed, I can post values from Perry's Chemical Engineering Handbook. But, we need to keep this simple. 1 gal of gasoline=125,000Btu 1 gal of diesel=139,000Btu 1 gal of ethanol=84,400Btu 1 gal of E10=120,900Btu Sooo...diesel has 139,000/125,000=11% more energy than gasoline. But, I agree that we should be using diesel. There are Ford's in the EU that get 61mpg, but the EPA bans them in the US. If we switched semis to CNG=Compressed Natural Gas and mandated commuter vehicles to get 61mpg, we could be energy independent overnight. Restoring US energy independence is critical if we are not going to spiral down to turd world status. Welcome aboard 48! 1) I didn't see where anyone is bashing ethanol. Just pointing out what the future may or may not hold. 2) Adjusting the refinement of crude oil from more gasoline to more diesel doesn't gain the total energy a barrel of crude oil ultimately yields.
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Post by ses on Aug 17, 2011 19:46:50 GMT -5
There's three obvious powerblocks in America, each forming three big tribes. One is the irrepressible taco in the sw, the other is the soul brothers in the se, and the crazy honky brigade in the midwest up into the north. Gonna be an interesting century. Yep, as soon as these flash mobs end up with a bunch of dead innocent whites the whites are gonna walk through these black neighborhoods with more shit than you can imagine. I know some guys with grenade launchers, grenades 50 cals. Bet the public has plenty of ammo and maybe even a tank or two. There's plenty of these guy who know how to use them too. The minorities in this country are digging their own graves. Gov handouts keep them from rioting. When they finally start rioting is when the ethnic cleansing starts.
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Post by 48 on Aug 17, 2011 22:44:55 GMT -5
I am against all subsidies...against Farm Program Payments...against Blender's Tax Credit which goes to Big Oil...against 54 cent tariff on imported Brazilian sugarcane ethanol which protects Big Oil's gasoline 9X more than corn ethanol...against the subsidies to Big Oil which dwarf what ethanol gets which goes to Big Oil anyway, but check this out:
via DTN:
Wednesday 08/17/11
USDA to Buy Up to $40 million in Chicken Products
Higher input costs for chicken producers combined with consumers buying less meat is resulting in a glut of chicken products in the market, according to an article by CNN Money. Total chicken production increased 4% in the first half of 2011 and demand for chicken has decreased, resulting in a dip in chicken retail prices. The USDA announced Monday it will purchase up to $40 million in chicken products, which it will donate to federal food assistance programs to help shrink the glut of product, raise retail prices and support producers. The chicken products will be donated to projects such as soup kitchens and USDA's Feeding America program. (CNN Money, August 16, 2011) (http://money.cnn.com/…)
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Post by 48 on Aug 17, 2011 22:55:55 GMT -5
Grainbelt: Thanx for your response to Beaner. He obviously misread my post. Beaner is one of the most intelligent people I know and so are you. I fully understand your point re Singapore etc., but I also know that Germany lost WWII for one reason...crude oil. It was bad enough that they had a syphillitic moron who sacrificed the German army in Russia. But, they lost it cuz of crude oil. And, crude oil is embedded into the price of everything. Inflation is the reason for everything going up...including crude oil. When you take into account the embedded multiplier effect of crude oil on the price of everything, it's a double whammy. The EPA should be abolished. CARB should be abolished. If we drilled Alaska, the Left Coast, FLA and converted semis to CNG which is going to be plentiful for a long time and mandated commuter vehicles to be 61 mpg diesels...which is not pie in the sky...but currently available in the EU, we could be energy independent overnight. Whether you agree with my premise or not, it is a real priviledge to talk to intelligent people again like yourself.
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Post by acfarmer on Aug 18, 2011 0:06:04 GMT -5
I am against all subsidies...against Farm Program Payments...against Blender's Tax Credit which goes to Big Oil...against 54 cent tariff on imported Brazilian sugarcane ethanol which protects Big Oil's gasoline 9X more than corn ethanol...against the subsidies to Big Oil which dwarf what ethanol gets which goes to Big Oil anyway, but check this out: via DTN: Really a DTN quote. Really a DTN quote Wednesday 08/17/11 USDA to Buy Up to $40 million in Chicken Products Higher input costs for chicken producers combined with consumers buying less meat is resulting in a glut of chicken products in the market, according to an article by CNN Money. Total chicken production increased 4% in the first half of 2011 and demand for chicken has decreased, resulting in a dip in chicken retail prices. The USDA announced Monday it will purchase up to $40 million in chicken products, which it will donate to federal food assistance programs to help shrink the glut of product, raise retail prices and support producers. The chicken products will be donated to projects such as soup kitchens and USDA's Feeding America program. (CNN Money, August 16, 2011) (http://money.cnn.com/…)
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Post by jabber1 on Aug 18, 2011 8:56:52 GMT -5
There's three obvious powerblocks in America, each forming three big tribes. One is the irrepressible taco in the sw, the other is the soul brothers in the se, and the crazy honky brigade in the midwest up into the north. Gonna be an interesting century. In the worst of times, I would see the lines as being drawn between those who want security, law and order, and protections for personal property vs those who want to loot those who have more. ----------------------------------------- From wiki- Many citizens listed themselves as "American" on the census (7.2%). They are generally assumed to be of predominantly English stock though some are likely to be people of several other different European ethnicities who are unable or unwilling to choose one. Many people who trace their ancestry to the colonial period or the slavery era consider themselves to be of "American" ancestry. It is estimated that 53 percent of White Americans are the descendants of colonial ancestors. In the late 18th century, 85 percent of White Americans were of British Isles ancestry, 9 percent were German, and 3 or 4 percent were of Dutch origin.[3] The census is based upon questionnaires and have been compiled from answers given by a sample group. Therefore the answers given will reflect what the individual knows about their ancestry. Many U.S. citizens do not know their ancestry entirely; partly for that reason, a large proportion simply call themselves "American" ancestry (not including American Indians) or know that a part of their ancestry is Irish or at least has an Irish name and will therefore say 'Irish' as their ancestry, when in fact most of their ancestry is English. An analysis of Census information and immigration records would suggest that 62 percent of White Americans today are of British Isles descent, and a total of 86 percent are of Northwestern European origins. Approximately 14 percent of U.S. whites are of southern and eastern European ancestry.[4] ----------------- Guess I am an American.
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Post by jabber1 on Aug 18, 2011 9:28:32 GMT -5
Back to the ethanol mandate. OBG, I can't say that I disagree with you about the risks to the future of ethanol if the mandate is not suspended or relaxed in the face of rising corn prices.
I wish we had more blending pumps to allow consumer choice, more flex fuel vehicles, more e pipelines, and mandates were relied on only to clean up the air.
Hopefully, the fact that new gas mileage standards will cause some major redesign of gasoline engines- the auto manufacturers will take this opportunity to get the maximum amount of energy from various ethanol blends as part of their design.
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Post by sandbox on Aug 18, 2011 14:35:44 GMT -5
Back to the ethanol mandate. OBG, I can't say that I disagree with you about the risks to the future of ethanol if the mandate is not suspended or relaxed in the face of rising corn prices. I wish we had more blending pumps to allow consumer choice, more flex fuel vehicles, more e pipelines, and mandates were relied on only to clean up the air. Hopefully, the fact that new gas mileage standards will cause some major redesign of gasoline engines- the auto manufacturers will take this opportunity to get the maximum amount of energy from various ethanol blends as part of their design. The Voice of Reason. Welcome
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Post by glowplug on Aug 18, 2011 16:39:18 GMT -5
Back in my youth, American made cars featured high compression engines. (That's the engine better suited to efficienty utilizing ethanol). Well along came the envirowackos and leaded gas was banned. So to use white gas (no-lead), auto makers were forced to switch to lower compression engines and of course, load the engines up with pollution controls which crimped gas mileage.
The current engines using "flex fuel" are capable of adjusting the air mix to best utilize E-85 but it takes a long time to transistion to all E-85 vehicles. So yes, jabber the technology exists. The problem still is that we're facing a tight corn supply, the NCBA has been using ethanol as a whipping boy for high grain prices, as has the Grocers Assoc. (largely WalMart in control), as has talk radio. The failure to get the FACTs out on ethanol is going to bite us.
And the failure to lead overall on energy development, failure to have more diesels, etc. is on both parties in Washington. I will blame the Democrats more because the envirowackos control the Dem Party.
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Post by looter on Aug 18, 2011 20:09:37 GMT -5
Back in my youth, American made cars featured high compression engines. (That's the engine better suited to efficienty utilizing ethanol). Well along came the envirowackos and leaded gas was banned. So to use white gas (no-lead), auto makers were forced to switch to lower compression engines and of course, load the engines up with pollution controls which crimped gas mileage. The current engines using "flex fuel" are capable of adjusting the air mix to best utilize E-85 but it takes a long time to transistion to all E-85 vehicles. So yes, jabber the technology exists. The problem still is that we're facing a tight corn supply, the NCBA has been using ethanol as a whipping boy for high grain prices, as has the Grocers Assoc. (largely WalMart in control), as has talk radio. The failure to get the FACTs out on ethanol is going to bite us. And the failure to lead overall on energy development, failure to have more diesels, etc. is on both parties in Washington. I will blame the Democrats more because the envirowackos control the Dem Party. So.... What's gonna happen to gasoline glut if you have everybody burning diesel?
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Post by looter on Aug 18, 2011 20:32:20 GMT -5
Back to the ethanol mandate. OBG, I can't say that I disagree with you about the risks to the future of ethanol if the mandate is not suspended or relaxed in the face of rising corn prices. I wish we had more blending pumps to allow consumer choice, more flex fuel vehicles, more e pipelines, and mandates were relied on only to clean up the air. Hopefully, the fact that new gas mileage standards will cause some major redesign of gasoline engines- the auto manufacturers will take this opportunity to get the maximum amount of energy from various ethanol blends as part of their design. I've played this thing out 6 ways to Sunday trying to figure out hoe this is going to go down. I really only see two plausible possibilities given the new higher mandate, and the loss of the BTC on New Years Eve. 1) We raise 13.5 billion bushels or more in 2011. Status quo is preserved. 2) We raise 13.5 billion bushels or less in 2011. An irreversible route of destruction begins. But when exactly does it it begin? The knowledge of the crops size is not a known until harvest is well underway. Does the EPA cut the mandate pronto? Or does nothing change until political pressure forces an adjustment in the mandate? At what point does this happen? Is it planting time? My guess is that nothing is done with the mandate until public outcry is brought to bear. Once the mandate is lifted I don't think it EVER comes back. The winners in a pessimistic scenario ultimately are; 1) Global livestock sector. 2) oil refiners 3) General Mills etc. The losers would eventually be; Ethanol plants Grain farmers Monsanto/mosaic/potash corp Plenty of ways to play this based on what you think the crop size is gonna be. Any other ideas out there?
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Post by linsal on Aug 18, 2011 21:21:40 GMT -5
I believe the crop size is going to come in less than expected. B. H. Obama will take over the ethanol plants via executive order and "manage" their output to help reduce food prices to American consumers. Corn growers will get screwed in the process if they haven't already contracted their 2011 corn crop.
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