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Post by clayknob on Aug 18, 2011 21:22:10 GMT -5
Long story short. The last few years we have had poor performance getting the cattle finished. The vet recommended switching to composite bulls to increase growth performance. We run Angus based cows, and have been selecting bulls for birthweight (only 60 cows so the heifer bull eventually becomes the herd bull). My only demands are docility and calving ease (I tend to calve the cows on stockpiled pasture which is 2 miles from the nearest headgate). My questions are: what are the general recommendations with the composite bulls, who is a good supplier (within 2 hours of St. Louis would be nice), and what can I expect if I save heifers out of one (frame size, etc)? We feed the calves out and sell through a local salebarn, no specialty markets.
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Post by 48 on Aug 18, 2011 22:54:15 GMT -5
clay: I'm not cow-calf. Stocker steers only...Red Angus are my favorite but lot's of Black too. When you say "Angus based"...well what are they? Black Limmys? The only good one is a dead one. Black Baldies? You get heterosis, but you also get pinkeye. You might want to consider AI with a junk clean up bull. With EPD's you can handle first calf heifer BW even tho they say you can't go across breeds with EPD's. Use Simmental semen. SimAngus will give you performance....gain. Simmys are more docile than Angus. And, you can sure keep them for replacement heifers. But, make sure they are black...no Hereford Simmys. lol. Just watch size and weight. You don't want a SimAngus cow eating you out of house and home.
Also, consider CAB premiums. Also, consider Source and Age. You might as well be picking up these premiums. My part time hired girl won the Angus Quality Assurance award. She does Source and Age for 8 feedlots...all same company.
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Post by clayknob on Aug 19, 2011 0:27:12 GMT -5
the cows are almost exclusively angus, couple of red and brown (no idea what base genetics) to mix it up. I'd love to AI but do not have the facilities or the time (we are also a genetic supplier for multiple sow units, and row crop......would need to hire people to AI properly). My long term goal is to go all baldy, they seem to hold up better with little or no care (we try to graze year round and they recieve under 5lb supplement per cow per year). As far as premiums, we need to be doing it....just haven't taken the time.
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Post by Rich© on Aug 19, 2011 0:29:43 GMT -5
If you want to jack around with a composite bull why not just marry your registered herd sire to the best 20 dams you have and then cull from there and raise your own?
Hell, I can see going to purebred sales to buy breeding from a reputable ranch with high score bloodlines but to crossbreed... Shit man, with a lil bit of organization, you can do that yourself and save one hell of a chunk of money.
I find composites, and their prices, as assenine as club calves.
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Jefe™©
Hired Hand
Peanut Gallery Liason
Posts: 125
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Post by Jefe™© on Aug 19, 2011 2:03:18 GMT -5
I find composites, and their prices, as assenine as club calves. I think I will have to disagree with you on this Rich. From the sales that I have been to, a guy can buy the best of the best Sim/Angus composite bull for $2,500 or less. You don't see that from the purebreds. clayknob, I don't know if there is any right answer for you. I see both sides of the fence with my herd being Angus based with Simmental bulls and Dad's herd being purebred Simmentals AI'd, with a Angus clean up bull. We sell both purebred and composite bulls and to tell you the truth, I think in your situation and the way many IMO are using the composite bull, it is like a security blanket because the Angus breed is involved. Don't get me wrong, I think composite bulls are a great thing but it might be like planting corn (put the right hybrid on the right acre) type of thing. The way it sounds, you have the low BW/calving ease in your herd. I wouldn't be afraid of using the right bloodlines of a purebred Simmental AND have no problems of sleeping at night. You should see the cobwebs on our calf puller (knock on wood). ;D I could go on and on about this but I'll leave it at, IMO, for what you are after, you'll be happier with a Simmental bull. The picture is of my yearling bull. I turned him out a week earlier than the solid black older bull. I'm interested to see how many baldies from the Angus cows I get in that first week of calving. Attachments:
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Post by Roy@ranch on Aug 19, 2011 6:45:29 GMT -5
When you say performance, do you mean they don't convert, or don't gain well, or they just don't get big enough?
I am guessing the low birthweight bulls are part of the problem.
Roy
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Post by Dave-ECIA on Aug 19, 2011 8:13:19 GMT -5
I am guessing the low birthweight bulls are part of the problem. Roy I was hoping for more info also..... IMH, limited experience..... Your problem is the heifer bull. They are bred to have small calves. Read that again, they are bred to have small calves. *Generally* speaking, they are smaller framed, lighter boned, flat muscled things and they are bred that way. That's what their calves will look like. Consider contracting with someone to breed your heifers. I did it when I didn't have the time to heat detect and AI. Probably should do it more. A neighboring lady with decades of AI and beef cattle experience did it for me. Charged yardage, and costs to AI. Kept them for 90 days and picked them up 100% bred. I wouldn't be afraid of a composite bull. I've looked at them as a way to balance the genetics that are bred into my cowherd without continually swapping breeds of bull.
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Post by bcreech on Aug 19, 2011 13:07:34 GMT -5
If I was going to use a composite bull it would be a Simangus as for hfrs they will work fine just breed them back angus If your cows won't handle a larger calf you need to cull the cows I use angus bulls on commercial angus cows and I go with higher BW bulls with more growth than the bulls I select for hfrs and at weaning you can sure tell the difference I think you are putting too much emphasis on Low BW for your cows and that is hurting your wts later on and your check book
on hfrs I selct bulls only for BW as a live calf and a hfr that breeds back is worth far more than a 100 extra lbs at weaning I have never been able to justify using a hfr bull on my cows as I know the calf will be lighter
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Post by 48 on Aug 19, 2011 13:13:49 GMT -5
clay: Most people work too hard to make money. It's not that hard to AI. I've helped my neighbor. You need to be picking the premiums up. Last weeks CattleFax showed Select=174.07, Choice=178.03, CAB Cut-Out (UB)=185.30.
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Post by sandbox on Aug 19, 2011 16:44:40 GMT -5
Just ai the heifers. Select bulls for your cows with the traits you want.
How many heifers do you retain per year? 10 or so? If so ai them or lease a heifer bull. Consider the calves out of the heifers to be a terminal cross and sell them all.
As for bulls to buy... good luck. Ask 10 different guys & get 10 different thoughts.
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Post by idahoruss on Aug 19, 2011 20:35:32 GMT -5
I would agree with everyone on your heifer bulls are throwing too small of calf for your bigger cows. I did that for years, I would only buy low birth weight black Angus bulls. It hurt my weaning weights to some extent. the difference was about $50 a head difference for light calves vs. 570 lb. calves. So I never worried about it. We had enough light calves to fill contract for lights that brought premiums.
So now I only buy a few low birth weight bulls, the rest are growth bulls, 85-100 lbs. birth weights. All of those cows run out on desert country, so I never have to worry about having cows too fat and no exercise. I've bought a couple of Sim/Angus bulls, the only way I can tell them apart from the other black Angus is their ear tags.
They will make you more to age and source verify, it's more of a deduct in price I feel, if you don't do it. This year I saw on my cattle a $28 per hundred difference by weaning and age/source vs. off cows w/only a vac program. Three to Two years ago, they didn't pay to age/source.
I still like to keep my bulls purebred, I like Black & Red Angus, Red Gelbvieh, also bought a Red Shorthorn this year. Just can't bring myself to buy a bally or strip face bull. Who knows that may change in the future, or my kids may change it.
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Post by feelnrite on Aug 19, 2011 20:53:19 GMT -5
I am in kind of the same boat and have around 60 cows so I like to buy a bull that I can do whatever needs to be done with him. I had what you would call a heifer bull that died last year and I wont be buying another one. He was a black angus bull that had a low BW and also had good WW and YW. He kind of had it all but I never liked his calves because they were kind of short and chunky but grew fair. I have had breeders here tell me they didnt like the heifer bull but had to offer some because people thought they had to have them. They said you could expect just about anything out of them and were not consistent. I like a BW epd of around 1.5 and seem to get good calves and no calving problems either.
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Post by idahoruss on Aug 19, 2011 21:05:23 GMT -5
You can buy a true heifer bull,with great growth numbers. And they would preform, but expect to pay over $4,500 for those types of bulls. I don't mind paying that kind of money for my own cattle, but hate to turn those bulls out in common with others.
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Post by ses on Aug 19, 2011 21:55:33 GMT -5
Just ai the heifers. Select bulls for your cows with the traits you want. How many heifers do you retain per year? 10 or so? If so ai them or lease a heifer bull. Consider the calves out of the heifers to be a terminal cross and sell them all. As for bulls to buy... good luck. Ask 10 different guys & get 10 different thoughts. Right there is the best advice on your heifers. I don't think you should be buying a heifer bull that ends up being the herd sire. You're probably losing more gain on your calves than the cost of AI ing would be. Then I'd buy a Char bull for the cows. Then I'd sell ALL of the calves and buy back replacements and every single replacement would be RED! There's not a better cross in the country than a red Angus bred to a Char bull. IMO.
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Post by 48 on Aug 19, 2011 22:01:19 GMT -5
ses: I agree with you on the Red Angus. He can do the same thing with his Black Angus cows by using a Simmy bull. You can get premiums for SimAngus.
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