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Post by clayknob on Aug 19, 2011 22:01:47 GMT -5
When you say performance, do you mean they don't convert, or don't gain well, or they just don't get big enough? I am guessing the low birthweight bulls are part of the problem. Roy We probably ran low birth weight for too long. We purchased a Bando AI son a few years ago and that really seems to be a root cause. Also the distillers ration isn't extremely hot (we feed dry distillers). They seem to finish in the end but at 1100 instead of the 1250 we're used to. |
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Post by 48 on Aug 19, 2011 22:06:50 GMT -5
Everybody's situation is different, but here I have a big pasture and a separate little pasture 2 mi away. The little pasture was used for raising replacement heifers, and then running a low BW bull on those first calf heifers. The big pasture had the production bulls. I love bulls. I make them into pets. But, bulls are a PIA. AI lets you use the best genetics and appropriate EPD's for what you're trying to accomplish. And, you don't have an expensive investment out there trying to kill each other or tearing the fences up to kick the azz of the neighbor's bull. lol.
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Post by clayknob on Aug 19, 2011 22:10:15 GMT -5
If I was going to use a composite bull it would be a Simangus as for hfrs they will work fine just breed them back angus If your cows won't handle a larger calf you need to cull the cows I use angus bulls on commercial angus cows and I go with higher BW bulls with more growth than the bulls I select for hfrs and at weaning you can sure tell the difference I think you are putting too much emphasis on Low BW for your cows and that is hurting your wts later on and your check book on hfrs I selct bulls only for BW as a live calf and a hfr that breeds back is worth far more than a 100 extra lbs at weaning I have never been able to justify using a hfr bull on my cows as I know the calf will be lighter Cows handle calves fine, we were just trying to save money buy buying young bulls for heifers and then moving him with the rest of the cows when he was too big to be used on heifers. As far as AIing we have done it in the past, but not enough time or space to do it properly. I'm not trying to sound lazy, but we have 11,000 head of pigs and we generally move them in slugs not steady.....it always seems to time out with when you need to be working cows, haying, etc. We have looked into buying bred heifers from a single source, or 2-3 calf cows and that probably is in the future. Yes should just hire someone to do the cattle work, but cattle aren't exactly our profit center as it is. |
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Post by clayknob on Aug 19, 2011 22:20:04 GMT -5
I find composites, and their prices, as assenine as club calves. I think I will have to disagree with you on this Rich. From the sales that I have been to, a guy can buy the best of the best Sim/Angus composite bull for $2,500 or less. You don't see that from the purebreds. clayknob, I don't know if there is any right answer for you. I see both sides of the fence with my herd being Angus based with Simmental bulls and Dad's herd being purebred Simmentals AI'd, with a Angus clean up bull. We sell both purebred and composite bulls and to tell you the truth, I think in your situation and the way many IMO are using the composite bull, it is like a security blanket because the Angus breed is involved. Don't get me wrong, I think composite bulls are a great thing but it might be like planting corn (put the right hybrid on the right acre) type of thing. The way it sounds, you have the low BW/calving ease in your herd. I wouldn't be afraid of using the right bloodlines of a purebred Simmental AND have no problems of sleeping at night. You should see the cobwebs on our calf puller (knock on wood). ;D I could go on and on about this but I'll leave it at, IMO, for what you are after, you'll be happier with a Simmental bull. The picture is of my yearling bull. I turned him out a week earlier than the solid black older bull. I'm interested to see how many baldies from the Angus cows I get in that first week of calving. I'm not afraid of going simmental bull, but how will that affect final frame size long term? I like large framed and rugged cows, but I don't want them to eat me out of house and home either. Are there any specific bloodlines or breeders that stand out? I'm not too familiar with the simmie's. |
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Post by 48 on Aug 19, 2011 22:27:37 GMT -5
clay: dman is a dairy farmer, but he has Red Angus and Simmy meat wagons to feed his Stein refusals to. He is a very good farmer/rancher and could prolly help you out with some good advice.
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Jefe™©
Hired Hand
Peanut Gallery Liason
Posts: 125
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Post by Jefe™© on Aug 19, 2011 23:07:14 GMT -5
clayknob- I think frame size is one thing the Simmental breed is concentrating a lot on. You look in the AI catalogs and you're seeing more and more bulls with less than 6 for frame. This year we used 4 bulls with less than a 6 frame score and that isn't necessarily the direction our herd needs. Just worked out that way.
For low BW type to use on heifers.... "Dream On" son's are always good but come with a hefty price tag usually. A Dream On son named "In Dew Time" is my first choice. "Triple C Invasion" we use on heifers but will sometimes throws a heavier calf but no problems with having it. Have used "Hooks Majestic" on heifers but the heifer calves leave something to be desired and the calves are all frame. "Ranch Hand" is another good one but can also sometimes throw heavier calves. Don't fall for a "Grandmaster" son. His EPD's have been messed with. All of these bulls are around breed average for growth. If you want to know about growth bulls then I need to take a breath.
I can't think of any breeders at the moment that would be close to you.
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Post by Rich© on Aug 22, 2011 12:55:32 GMT -5
I think I will have to disagree with you on this Rich. From the sales that I have been to, a guy can buy the best of the best Sim/Angus composite bull for $2,500 or less. You don't see that from the purebreds. I'm going to be a lil hard pressed to believe all this. If that breeders best of the best bull is only bringing 2500 dollars in this market then he's a freshner bull at best. Meaning.. he can breed but exceptional epd's and eye appeal lack. Not to mention depth of muscle and balance. What I've seen, which I will admit is not a great amount as I am not in the business like I used to be, still makes me think it's a racket. Most good cattlemen buy a good quality purebred for thier operation. They have build thier herd over the years and culled extensively to eliminate bad characteristics not even limited to body build and calving ease but also attitude and fence respecters. In that mix alot of times comes out female replacements that are purebred to close to purebred.... especially if its a family that shows livestock and has bought purebred females to take to shows. Might as well capitalize on your own building and makings and bring about a build in a bull that you know will fit your herd from using within your herd. Of course.. an embreyo flush transfer and A.I will also create what your looking for too if the chances come reality that go along with that option. At any rate.... It could very well be location and regions that we vary in what we are seeing. That isn't unheard of. |
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Post by Dave-ECIA on Aug 22, 2011 13:28:46 GMT -5
Well shit... way to pee in my cheerios Rich!
I'm just beginning the search to replace my old simmy bull. I had thought either Angus or an Angusxsimmy cross bull. Most of my cows have varying % of Angus, Simmy, and Gelbveih with Angus being the lowest %.
Both are hard to find around here for this fall-calver. Not too many fall calving purebred herds around and the yearlings are long gone.
We switched to fall because we have a lot of cheap forage to winter them on, more available labor during calving (me), and I can winter the calves then kick them out in the spring with their mamas to take advantage of the spring flush when they are ready to grow.
We usually AI the best cows in search of replacement heifers, but now you're trying to convince me that I should raise a bull instead??
Now you just about talked me out of a composite bull.... but not quite. Yet.
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Post by Rich© on Aug 22, 2011 15:44:18 GMT -5
What are you looking for to give your herd an improvement?
Do you need more frame score or Muscle?
Do the udders need to be larger to increase milk for the calves?
Do your cows have pelvic openings that are plenty big enough to have larger bw calves and not cause issues?
Do you need more black influence for the buyers at the salebarn?
Assess your herd..... What are you actually trying to build on? I'm reading bits and pieces about bw's in previous posts but I guess I musta missed what you said you were exclusively going for here.
Now... Study the breeds availble. Which ones traits give you more of what your looking for.
Obviously Angus cattle are getting bred for a variety of frame scores... you can seek one out that is on the top end that will influence your herds color to please the buyers.
Or perhaps you need frame score and larger pelvises to handle the heavier bw's. Black is dominant in your herd and with either breed you are going to influence your milk epd provided you don't find a bull thats a complete funk.
Now.... Marry a purebreed with domineering traits and start using him to make the offspring crossbred to increase hybrid vigor.
And just so you do know... While the old school insists that we stay with 3 way crosses... you can goto 4 if they are all going to the feedlot and still maximize your crossbreeding program for excellant traits and not cause a hinze 57 (crossbreeding screwup)
Don't keep back any 4 cross calves for anything except a hamburger patty.
Next thing.... what sorta records you been keeping? Can you make an epd sheet of your own herd? Can you apply these numbers in search of your next bull purchase? Remember, My herds epds are not in line with your herds epds. They are seperate of each other.
Use the EPD sheets to select your next best herd improvement.... after you have a selection of many picked.... THEN go and judge by the eye approval method.
And be ready to watch the top 10 bulls sell.
Never fails, every damn auction I ever went to I always picked the top ones that brought the most money......
.... and I purchased an insurance plan on that bastard afterwards too. It takes only one lightning strike to royally make the pain from the dent in the wallet reach your ass.
At any rate.... What are you seeking to improve your herd?
The 3 breeds you have named I see not much to critique about other then if you have Simmental, what are you truly gaining with Gelbvieh? Personally, I have always thought those 2 breeds were very close to each other in everything but color.
And I'm still a sucker for the old school Simmy Color. Bastards and thier CAB programs. Milking a hype where they take advantage of the uniformed citiot.
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