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Post by linsal on Aug 15, 2011 8:40:01 GMT -5
Looter has mentioned a couple of times to the best of my recollection that Germany gets about twice the productivity out of a barrel of oil compared to the US. It seems that on the ethanol thread, most of the posters recognize that we (US) have to become either more energy efficient or less dependent on crude oil to make our economy hum. Drilling for more oil here at home seems to be a good stop-gap measure, but assuming Looter is correct in the ever declining availability of easily obtained crude oil, it seems that we, as a nation, need to start making some serious changes.
What is it that Germany is doing which allows them to be so much more efficient that the US?
My wife and I honeymooned in Italy 6 years ago...she broke her ankle on our second day there, so I had some time to wander around and see how regular Italians lived in Venafro (a city SE of Rome). Several things jumped out at me. 1) The cars are a whole lot smaller and about half of them are diesels. 2) There are communities of people about 3-5 miles apart almost everywhere we traveled. They were inhabited by farmers who drove their tractors out to their fields to work for the day. Many small dairy farms were located in these villages. I saw very few homes actually located on the land being farmed. 3) Inter-city bus service ran through Venafro about every 15-20 minutes. 3-4 people would get on..about the same number would get off. 4) Train service ran through Venafro at least once per hour. I don't know if there was passenger service or not..the rail line was about 3/4 mile from the hospital where I was spending a lot of my time.
I am assuming that Italy is very similar to Germany in that they import most of their crude oil, but I have not checked to be sure. Regardless, does anyone know if Germany is similar (in my aforementioned description) to Italy?
How did Germany become so much more adept at using energy? Was it through the demands of the market place? Or was it forced upon businesses and the citizens of Germany by the gov't? I know Italy is in serious trouble financially...I hope to go back some day and see what changes, if any, have taken place for the average Joe on the street.
If anyone is curious, it is possible to pull Venafro up on Mapquest and view it...both in satellite and street mode. It is rough country.
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Post by looter on Aug 15, 2011 19:02:41 GMT -5
Thirsty, not I, is an expert on Germany. He has dual citizenship, and spends tons of time there breeding Super Models.
A person needs to Google "Dutch Disease" and "Resource Curse". They mean the same thing. A country with loads of resources is most likely fricked. A country like Singapore that adds lots of GDP to a barrel lives like kings.
It's as plain as the nose on your face
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Post by thirsty on Aug 15, 2011 22:34:59 GMT -5
@ Linsal
You could fairly compare Italy to Germany in regards to urban/rural composition, rail, and size of automobile. Germany's road are probably better, driving on the autobahn is worth a vacation alone. But all in all until you get into southern Italy they would be quite similiar. Both countries have oil consumption decline d-o-d and both countries have also increased their GDP decade over decade.
Difference is in both their current account situation and GDP growth moving forward. While I think the northern half of Italy could very well weather this storm, south Italy will fall off a cliff. Southern Italy is famous for mafia and corruption. Northern Italy is famour for Ferrari and Lambourghini. Italy north could be Germany but Italy south drags it down.
I think Looter broaches this subject better in that other thread with his post on why most conservation measures will not be seen in USA.
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mfs
Hired Hand
Posts: 163
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Post by mfs on Aug 15, 2011 23:31:00 GMT -5
Thirsty, I have not travelled Germany as much as you. I have gone from Prague to Paris and essentially on the Maine, Rhine, and Moselle. I do have a son who has lived between Rome and Civitella del Tronto for the last 14 years and travelled all over Europe as well as other locales. I also have an uncle who was former VP of overseas exploration of Union Oil Company of California. He now teaches at the Fuqua MBA program of Duke University. He told me 30+years ago of German austerity and how we had to model similar behavior. We waste too much. We have too many subsidies as does Britian. I was hoping to go see my son and go to the carving valley in Val Gardena and then to Oktobervest in Munich this year, but too many complications. He does have friends who have a table in a tent.
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Post by beaner on Aug 16, 2011 15:57:25 GMT -5
A lot of the efficiency comes from germany's very high population density. It has a population of 81.5 million living in an area of 137,847 square miles. Thats' half-way between New Mexico and Montana in size. People mostly live in large cities or in towns where there is very good mass transit and everything is close. Their farms are very productive because of good rainfall. German cities are more vertical while America's are horizontal.
We can and do emulate a lot of what Germany does in large cities like New York, Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Seattle. However, that is simply not possible all across America. Our country was established at a time when land was plentiful and ars were accessible. german cities lergely developed before gthere were automobiles so they were built densely to avoid distance travel. Look at places like New York, Boston, Phildelphia, and many coastal towns like Charleston, SC and Savannah, GA and you will see dense populations near the water.
Germany has encouraged the maintenance of dense populations by limiting conversion ofr farmlands, by making gasline expensive, by heavily taxing cars, and by building mass transit.
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Post by thirsty on Aug 16, 2011 20:12:36 GMT -5
A lot of the efficiency comes from germany's very high population density. It has a population of 81.5 million living in an area of 137,847 square miles. Thats' half-way between New Mexico and Montana in size. People mostly live in large cities or in towns where there is very good mass transit and everything is close. Their farms are very productive because of good rainfall. German cities are more vertical while America's are horizontal. We can and do emulate a lot of what Germany does in large cities like New York, Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Seattle. However, that is simply not possible all across America. Our country was established at a time when land was plentiful and ars were accessible. german cities lergely developed before gthere were automobiles so they were built densely to avoid distance travel. Look at places like New York, Boston, Phildelphia, and many coastal towns like Charleston, SC and Savannah, GA and you will see dense populations near the water. Germany has encouraged the maintenance of dense populations by limiting conversion ofr farmlands, by making gasline expensive, by heavily taxing cars, and by building mass transit. Good post. A couple notes, nothing is stopping the coasts from switching to other more efficient modes of travel. They both have similiar population densities to europe and could make alternative forms of mass transit possible at a possibly profitable rate. The grainbelt and the empty quarter both have low pop. densities but also consume little in the way of fuel in regards to the bigger picture. Compared to the California, fuel consumption in Nebraska is a fart in a windstorm. Another thing, many german cities are far younger than you think, while many of them were settled and established many centuries ago there was this big war a half century back which levelled good portions of all of them. Driving into Berlin up the 115 you will see a large hill off to the west some couple hundred meters high, wide and at least a kilometer long.... that is made up entirely of broken bricks cleaned up by the women left in Berlin after the war ended. Its a good couple kilometers from the downtown and from the worst hit neighbourhoods, all schlepped there by basket and wheelbarrow. You also don't see many ultra-high highrises, most buildings are limited by height restrictions. Frankfurt is one of the few cities I can think of where north american style highrises are a rule, rather than the exception. |
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Post by glowplug on Aug 16, 2011 22:18:04 GMT -5
August 16, 2011
The euro tumbled once again overnight after economic data out of Europe showed the economy barely growing and in danger of slipping into another recession. Germany has been an anchor for Europe's economy, but it too fell victim to near-zero growth. The collapse of the euro sent the dollar higher, with investors moving toward U.S. treasury notes and gold as well.
---------------The truth says otherwise..................
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Post by looter on Aug 17, 2011 6:51:14 GMT -5
August 16, 2011 The euro tumbled once again overnight after economic data out of Europe showed the economy barely growing and in danger of slipping into another recession. Germany has been an anchor for Europe's economy, but it too fell victim to near-zero growth. The collapse of the euro sent the dollar higher, with investors moving toward U.S. treasury notes and gold as well. ---------------The truth says otherwise.................. Where would Germany be if they consumed 23 barrels of oil per person per year like we do? You said it takes cheap energy to create a healthy economy. I agree. Afterall, $20/gal gasoline IS cheap if you're getting enough productivity out of it. |
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Post by beaner on Aug 17, 2011 8:58:46 GMT -5
Another factor in Germany's energy efficiency is its lack of temperature extremes. Yes, it gets cold in parts of germany, but not as cold as the U.S. upper midwest. Clearly in the summer it is not as hot as most of the U.S. This allwos germany to save money on heating and air conditioning.
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Post by linsal on Aug 17, 2011 10:25:21 GMT -5
What is Germany's per person consumption of crude oil on an annual basis?
I fear that there are many people in the US who are going to be in for one hell of a rude awakening when the SHTF. I hope I'm not one of them....
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Post by glowplug on Aug 17, 2011 16:51:13 GMT -5
Gentlemen, you want to sing the praises of Euro-weenie nations, go for it. I'll give them some credit for a few smarts. France gets 80 plus % of their electricity from nuclear and even though they're the French, they haven't be able to screw that up. Travel to those EU nations and what are they driving.................yes DIESELS. Diesels, like what the California Air Resource Board keeps the other 49 states from having in USA.
And we have the potential of having 2% or more biodiesel blended into petrodiesel, providing more cylinder lubrication and a cleaner burn. This failure for USA to transistion to diesel is a major failure in leadership right after 1973s OPECker oil embargo. MAJOR Failure. Instead we grew oilseeds for low prices for many years, and somehow settled on ethanol (not what I would have done but I don't make policy). Our domestic livestock sector would have thrived on all that oil seed meal instead of bitching about corn ethanol.
Germany not only tends to be warmer, it tends to be sunnier that most parts of USA so solar works there. Here at the passive solar Ft. Cheddar, we can be cloudy for as much as 4 weeks in winters. I'd never get a ROI on an active solar system before the system would be shot.
Comparing Germany to USA is about as relevant as equating Miller Lite to a fine German beer. Gimme a break..............
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Post by linsal on Aug 17, 2011 20:17:57 GMT -5
I'm not trying to sing the praises of the European folks, I'm simply trying to understand what they have and what, if any of that, could be applicable here in the US.
On the ethanol thread, Grainbelt shared the following:
"We don't need to worry about which lines on a map the btu's are produced just that it is used in an efficient, high value added way."
I agree with that statement. The kicker for me is how do we as a nation work to be more energy efficient? Sure, growing oil-seed crops is going to help---I won't argue that. But I just can't see how it is going to get us where we need to go. Nuclear energy may be an option, but it is costly and the public and politicians don't seem to be too keen on it. Coal seems to be our best option, but there are drawbacks there as well.
My wife has family in Houston and LA...I've been to both and am simply amazed at the number of cars out on the freeways. I-10 in Houston had 5 lanes of traffic in both directions when we met---now it has 10----that is a boat load of cars. LA is just as bad, if not worse. We're going to have to come up with some kind of a solution to replace gas burning cars. Compressed air seems to be a really interesting idea, but I don't know what the hold up is? I could see those types of cars working well in metro areas. We also seem to need to ramp up rail usage, both for freight and passenger. I've ridden Houston's light rail...seems like a nice system and is quite popular with the locals. The only problem I can see is that they aren't expanding it fast enough. Is it cost effective? I dunno....Houston Metro took buses out of service where the rail runs to force those folks to ride the train.
And I could go on with other ideas....but ultimately, I'm left with the question, "Do we let the marketplace decide what is going to work in a world with constrained energy resources? Or let the gov't make decisions?" I lean towards the market BUT I would like it to be an unmanipulated market---not one being gamed by people who stand to make a boat load of money.
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Post by glowplug on Aug 17, 2011 20:48:35 GMT -5
"And most horrifying, they say, ACI has no policy in place for handling bodily fluids. Especially now that the city of Phoenix has sliced its budget for fare enforcement, transients are getting on the trains — some without shirts, others without shoes.
Passengers are peeing on the train.
And bleeding on the train.
And, in at least one instance, defecating on the train.
In other cities across the country, there are systems in place to pull a contaminated train off the tracks. But in Phoenix, trains just keep going.
"You get urine, you get regurgitation, and you'd think a supervisor would at least show up and stand by warning people until it's cleaned up," one driver says. That hasn't happened. "People just walk through it and track it all over the train."
-----------------yeah linsal, we're about to get a choo-choo train in Milwaukee, squandering millions of taxpayer dollars. And unlike city buses, the choo-choo train will need special attention to run in the snow or it's off the tracks. Germany doesn't get our kind and amount of snow except in the mountains.
"mister, we can use a man like Adolph Hitler again," -------Edith from her bunker.
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Post by ses on Aug 17, 2011 21:24:28 GMT -5
Glowplug the way you handle that is toss the pisser off of the train at 40 MPH. The rest will soon shape up.
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Post by looter on Aug 18, 2011 2:56:59 GMT -5
What is Germany's per person consumption of crude oil on an annual basis? I fear that there are many people in the US who are going to be in for one hell of a rude awakening when the SHTF. I hope I'm not one of them.... 12 barrels per person per year in Germany. 26 barrels per person per year in American in 2005. As we consume less, we look/feel worse. |
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